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Jiro 18 May 2015 08:51 AM
65%

Users have several different purposes for that type of information. Not putting them in unless it is possible to articulate a specific, universal, reason for them is unhelpful, and also subject to arguing that each individual reason isn't valid.

Pretty much every other forum on the net for anything displays the date of the comment. This alone should be a reason to include it unless you have a *very* good reason not to that you're *very* certain of.

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Fwiffo 18 May 2015 05:26 PM
56%

I am not so much about resisting the feature but in design it is almost more important to know why you are doing stuff than what you are doing. People sometimes ask for things they think they want when they could very easily tell what they want to accomplish so that a more suitable solution can be provided. That you miss the date tells that you are actually using it for something. Do you read or not read based on the date? Do you write different replies based on the date?

Because politics can be mindkill there is a motive to keep things simple. Indirect deduced information is more likely to be harmful. Therefore you might not want to throw eveyrthing and the kitchen sink to detract from the actual discussion.

THere is also the issue that usage is only shaping up. If we just implement random features and let those guide our usage habits we could end up with random culture. It would be way more important to make concious decision about it. Then atleast it would be our fault.

User indeed have various uses for that information and we might want to serve them only selectively. If users don't want to get "bogged down by old discussion" them being a archieve point of more quality political talk would be harder. On the other hand a person might be unsure whether that person still thinks the way they wrote sometime. To that need we might need to want to express retraction of stances. It doesn't have anything to do with dates but by being smart about why we make alterations we can use that impulse to aknowledge what our proper needs are.

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Jiro 19 May 2015 02:59 PM
65%

Saying that we need to justify implementing "random features" when the feature is as ubiquitous as dates is putting the burden of proof on the wrong side. You're basically saying "we have to reconstruct everything from first principles". That is a bad design principle. Human beings learn based on what other human beings have found works.

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Fwiffo 19 May 2015 03:21 PM
56%

If you copy succesfull works without understanding how the thing that you copy accomplishes the good thing that it does were it was copied from you will get stupid unthought solutions.

I am not interested in forming a burden of proof, but I would like to note that a simple mention that a feature is wanted doesn't form a burden to implement it either (althought I guess this owuld ordinarily be handled by silently just not implementing the feature).

I thought that the reflective activity of looking at the want more clearly would not be that much additional burden (and in fact would interesting personal content about the website). Get that people don't always elaborate on their wants but I am giving that prompt so people that know how to form those know that people capable of recieving them are paying attention. That is an unexplained need for a feature has lower chance of getting implemented than one that has a associated use case filed along with it.

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Jiro 19 May 2015 03:46 PM
65%

I am not interested in forming a burden of proof


If using it has to be justified, and you don't want it in unless it's been justified, then you are interested in putting the burden of proof on me. That's what "burden of proof" means.

I thought that the reflective activity of looking at the want more clearly would not be that much additional burden


It's an additional burden because the requirement is not just that I reflect on my reasons, it's that I get a list of reasons that can convince you.

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Fwiffo 19 May 2015 04:24 PM
56%

Yes, that is what a burden of proof means and I don't mean that I am against it if isn't justified. That how what I want to say differs from forming a burden of proof.

I would see much value in a list of reasons that didn't convince me. It means it is wanted for reasons that can be stated overtly (hidden agendas are pretty nasty). It also means cooperation on the improvement can be attempted. It is one thing to fail in that attempt than not even try (and then there are better and worse ways of failing it). It also means it is not just a throwaway line and it is though through meaning there is less chance that it is later discovered that wasn't what was really wanted.

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Jiro 20 May 2015 08:45 AM
67%

So if I come up with a list of reasons why people might use dates, even if you don't think those reasons are valid, you will then support adding dates?

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Fwiffo 20 May 2015 01:05 PM
56%

I would like not a possibilty of why they might be used but what you would infact feel the need to use them for. Yes, I would vouch more for them with the list than without.

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Jiro 21 May 2015 09:15 AM
65%

"Vouch more for them" is an ambiguous statement. "I'll only really oppose it" is more vouching than "I'll really, REALLY, oppose it". What I am asking is if you mean what you seem to mean when you say that the reasons don't need to convince you.

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Fwiffo 21 May 2015 04:26 PM
56%

a feature suggestion with no detail I am prone to be indifferent about. If there are reasons that convince me I can personally get behind them. I would prefer feature suggestions others reason about over those that others just want (if it happens they give up convincing me). I am not the one that decides whether it goes in or not but I kinda care that whoever makes that decision has ample access to likely relevant consequences of the decision. That is I care whether the decision is easy or not. The hardest it is when they have to research all the relevenat facts by themselfs. An issue that has a comprehensive introduction has just the solving part left without the additional suppport work.

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Jiro 27 May 2015 08:12 AM
63%

Not having posts with dates is the equivalent of selling hot dogs at a festival without buns and then demanding that people give reasons as to why they want buns before you'll even consider it. It is always possible to demand an endless stream of reasons for arbitrary things. "Why can't you just stick a fork in it and eat it off the fork? Why can't you just hold the hot dog in a piece of cheese? Can't you just put the hot dog on a fork instead of having it be in a bun? If you like the taste of bread with a hot dog, why won't you just let us dip it in bread crumbs instead?"

If you really don't understand why people want dates on posts, your thinking is so far from everyone else's that there's no point in trying to satisfy you. And I have no interest in saying "I want dates for reason X" and getting a reply that is the equivalent of "why can't you wrap it in a slice of cheese instead of doing X?"

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Fwiffo 27 May 2015 08:53 AM
56%

I have not any thoughts on "dam I wished that posts had dates on them". If you think that if the statement is not accepted without argument then there is no point in trying to argue for it it is not a very discussive attitude.

You can look up the suggestion to be able to sort through message by arrrival order. What you are expecting would happen didn't happen that time.

If I am selling wieners in a event and people give me dirty looks when they insist on calling them hot dogs and because they are somehow "wrong" I will point them to the nearest bakery.

I might be able to imagine a bunch of improper uses for them but because I don't want to impose negative presuppositions on you I would rather listen to which of the potentially proper uses we might be talking about. It must be a super touchy subject if the reasons can't be even mentioned. It is one thing to hold ones own reasons to hold more weight than others have for them but to be secretive about them so that others can't even form differing opinions about them?

If I write something on this forum it doesn't need to weight you down if it doesn't convince you.

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Jiro 27 May 2015 12:19 PM
67%

If you think that if the statement is not accepted without argument then there is no point in trying to argue for it it is not a very discussive attitude.


In order for arguing to be of any use at all, some statements must be accepted without argument. Arguments don't work without shared premises.

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Fwiffo 27 May 2015 02:09 PM
56%

Thus when there is a disagreement it is good to share why one is of the stance one is to be able to compare whether a common premise base can be reached or not. Treating every statement as an axiom is rather extreme.

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